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[colourize]

German wages and benifits must decrease or German industry will die.

Even with more decreasing wages german industry could not compete with the far east or eastern european states. The production sector in germany is nearly dead right now, and due to the fact that the former working class cannot be retrained to employees in the research and development sector, we have to face the fact that full employment in our society could never be reached nowadays.
Today german economy benefits from knowledge based services; we have the ability to generate a higher business volume with a comparatively small number of (high educated) employees.
So the main problem is the fair distribution of public wealth. And the question what "fair" means.

[refugee]

German wages and benifits must decrease or German industry will die.

Even with more decreasing wages german industry could not compete with the far east or eastern european states. The production sector in germany is nearly dead right now, and due to the fact that the former working class cannot be retrained to employees in the research and development sector, we have to face the fact that full employment in our society could never be reached nowadays.
Today german economy benefits from knowledge based services; we have the ability to generate a higher business volume with a comparatively small number of (high educated) employees.
So the main problem is the fair distribution of public wealth. And the question what "fair" means.

German industry won't completely die. The global labor market needs to stabilize. This means more flexible labor. Germany doesn't need a manufacturing industry. It can depend on its knowledge based services to compete in the global market. You are too pessimistic  

[colourize]

German industry won't completely die. The global labor market needs to stabilize. This means more flexible labor. Germany doesn't need a manufacturing industry. It can depend on its knowledge based services to compete in the global market. You are too pessimistic  

I'm pessimistic in issues concerning the fair distribution of public wealth, only.
The main problem is that knowledge based services don't need a high amount of workers, and of course industrial workers will never become researchers and developers. This is even a question of education.
So the rate of the unemployed in germany will not cease to rise in the future.

How can these people participate from public wealth?
(Maybe this question is a chance to prove your so-called socialist identity )

[Akira]

Biserka asked why we need Government, and if it's true that humans are essentially Good, then we don't need it. But I think it's pretty obvious when we look at human activity over history that humans are capable of great evil as well as great good. And anyway, these words are so relative (take the pig example from SoylentHolger  :wink: ) that we need someone with authority to say what is best for society. It's nice to say that the common people should all run things the way they want to, but as Mentallo said in another thread, the proletariat are no better solidarity partners than the ruling class. Look at communism. The best mix, so far, is a representative democracy.

Someone with authority who said waht is the best for us?
Okay 60 years ago germany had one Person with big autority and he
thought it was the best for us to expand to poland

I can't accept a person or any gathering that tells us what is right or wrong I belive that every human have to know what is right or wrong.

Himmler said: "We will become greatest hero's in worlds history or the greatest murderer"

The winner makes the history and so they become the greatest murderers "behind Stalin he is all time number one "

The point is that every human has an other opinion in what is right or wrong catholics "no sex before marriage" or muslims "no pig"

no sex before marriage is boring
and sometimes I'd like to eat ham

but when there is an "muslim" authority he won't allow me to eat ham
or to having sex...

the point is that authoority kills your free space
to do what you want to...

Sorry for my bad english I didn'T wrote a thing for 5 years...

[Akira]

German industry won't completely die. The global labor market needs to stabilize. This means more flexible labor. Germany doesn't need a manufacturing industry. It can depend on its knowledge based services to compete in the global market. You are too pessimistic  

There is the problem

Germany's best export product is knowledge
our engineers are adjusted by american firms

The USA pays higher wages
You pay lower tax in the USA so where do you want to work?

we are not pessimistic we are fear-fulfilled

[searcher]

Someone with authority who said waht is the best for us?
Okay 60 years ago germany had one Person with big autority and he
thought it was the best for us to expand to poland

I can't accept a person or any gathering that tells us what is right or wrong I belive that every human have to know what is right or wrong.

Himmler said: "We will become greatest hero's in worlds history or the greatest murderer"

The winner makes the history and so they become the greatest murderers "behind Stalin he is all time number one "

The point is that every human has an other opinion in what is right or wrong catholics "no sex before marriage" or muslims "no pig"

no sex before marriage is boring
and sometimes I'd like to eat ham

but when there is an "muslim" authority he won't allow me to eat ham
or to having sex...

the point is that authoority kills your free space
to do what you want to...

Sorry for my bad english I didn'T wrote a thing for 5 years...

das ist alles richtig. jetzt müssen wir bloß noch autorität definieren. das ist einfach: der staat.

die nächste frage ist wie ist dieser staat legitimiert. auch das ist einfach: entweder so wie oben beschrieben, einer sagt wo es lang geht und das solange bis er sich neun millimeter in den kopf drückt, oder pillen schluckt. die andere möglichkeit wäre wir suchen uns jemanden/mehere aus der/die möglichst vielen gefällt/gefallen und wenn er/sie uns nicht mehr gefällt/gefallen suchen wir uns einen neuen/eine neue gruppe. das heißt dann rep. demokratie.

und damit wir uns nicht alle den schädel einschlagen wegen unserer unterschiedlichen ansichten, werden halt unsere freiheiten eingeschränkt, ohne das geht es halt nicht. da wir aber die autorität ändern können, können wir auch über die einschränkung unserer freiheiten indirekt mitentscheiden. warum das nicht direkt entscheiden? weil das mit der heutigen technologie nicht geht, rein praktisch.82 mille sind halt einfach zu viele für direkte demokratie. und jetzt komm mir nicht mit internet, außer den naiven wissen alle wie unsicher das im moment ist.

und wenn dir das nicht gefällt, was die von der mehrheit gewählte autorität tut, dann musste halt aktiv werden und werbung für deine meinung machen das sich die mehrheitsverhältnisse ändern. aber da nach diesem ganzen gewäsch, das hier von den demokratie gegner ins spiel gebracht wird, jeder mensch ist gut und vernünftig und einsichtig, sollte dann nicht auch eine mehrheit dieser menschen das richtige tun? oder ist diese mehrheit die von den demokratie gegner beschriebene ausnahme von den vernünftigen und guten und einsichtigen menschen? aber warum ist es dann die mehrheit?weil die vernünftigen nicht wählen, weil das system an sich schlecht ist? merkt ihr wie eure argumente sich in luft auflösen?

achja by the way, sorry akira das ich gerade deinen post hier zitiere aber ich war zu faul mir aus den letzten drei seiten die einzelnen beiträge zusammen zu suchen. und deiner fasst das meiste davon so schön zusammen.

[Akira]

achja by the way, sorry akira das ich gerade deinen post hier zitiere aber ich war zu faul mir aus den letzten drei seiten die einzelnen beiträge zusammen zu suchen. und deiner fasst das meiste davon so schön zusammen.

noe is ja okay ^^ dafür sind ja konversationen da man nimmt nen geschreibsel und zerreist es dann inner luft ^^

Ich seh das Problem in der executiven bzw überhaupt an der form ich mein wer hat mich gefragt was ich haben will?
Konstutuelle Monarchie wär doch auch geil der Prügelprinz aufn Deutschen reichsthron oder nen ältesten rat gibt in der theorie soviele formen aber was ham wir?

eine regierung aus weicheiern und versagern die sich inner Partei hochgeschleimt haben und eigentlich weder qualifiziert noch fähig sind einen staat zu führen z.b. USt erhöhung die hätte vor 6 jahren einträten müssen neee wie führen umweltsteuer ein is brauchbarer...
Oder eine Familienministerin die 4x verheiratet war und keene kinder hat?
sorry was hat die tusse ne ahnung von Familie? Finanzminister für 2 jahre damit man schön in ruhestand kann dort wirds zu langweilig udn auf einmal spielt man inner anderen partei mit...

wir können ja alle politiker erschießen und sämtliche positionnen mit fachkräften ersetzen

machen wa aus ministern manager
qualität statt dünnschiß....

[refugee]

@colourize

Even if Germany's economy was based only on a service industry, it doesn't mean that there wouldn't be enough work for most people. The services of highly educated people would be exported while the services of less specialized people would support the internal economy: waiters, hair dressers, salesmen... And you talked about "social wealth" only in Germany. Think about the whole world. Why shouldn't they be allowed to participate in the global wealth? The stabilization of the global labor market will make the differences between the rich and poor less than they are now (hopefully). There's my socialist identity  

@ Akira

I didn't say government is good, but it's better than anarchy. Sure, authority kills freedom. But if I have the freedom to kill someone, that kills their freedom too. Someone needs to have the final decision in a society when there is an argument. That's the only way we can all live together.

And German engineers moving to America because the wages are better, or "brain drain", will be cured when the UN has enough authority to stop American protectionism which helps American wages stay higher than they should be.

@searcher

Direkt Demokratie - wer will das? Ich bin mir nicht so sicher ob es hilft. Eine Menge kann genau so gefährlich als ein Diktator sein. Die Mehrheit können auch was schlechtes zusammenmachen. Und, ich hab nie behauptet kein Teil die Mehrheit zu sein. Ich bin ganau so fähig, schlechte Dinge zu machen als alle anderen. (Aber höffentlich hab noch nicht   )

[colourize]

The services of highly educated people would be exported while the services of less specialized people would support the internal economy: waiters, hair dressers, salesmen...

Sounds like beeing "less specialized" means serving the successful. Former working class conscious men become service class (or should I say: service-slaves) of the export orientated global citizen. I've no idea how this goes together with social equality and social equity.

And you talked about "social wealth" only in Germany. Think about the whole world. Why shouldn't they be allowed to participate in the global wealth? The stabilization of the global labor market will make the differences between the rich and poor less than they are now (hopefully).

On a global perspective I guess you're right. The problem is that our reference group are not child-workers in the third world, but our neighbors living next to us. And in a national perspective social inequality increases.

Surely, compared to the global population any unsheltered tramp in germany is richer than 90% of the people all over the world - but for us he's deprived.

[refugee]

Sounds like beeing "less specialized" means serving the successful. Former working class conscious men become service class (or should I say: service-slaves) of the export orientated global citizen. I've no idea how this goes together with social equality and social equity.
quote]

I never said I like the way things are going. Things will get worse. But not as bad as you think. Germany will still have jobs, just not as many manufacturing jobs. You're right, the service industry is a lot like slavery. "The costomer is always right." But like I said: some work for everyone is better than too much work for a few and none for the rest.

What's really important is the UN. They will be the only group that can keep internation corporations from exploiting workers too badly, in Germany and children in the third world.
We need fair trade, not free trade.

[Kortirion]

We need fair trade, not free trade.

Right. This is something everybody (!) should keep in mind!

[colourize]

We need fair trade, not free trade.

*word*

[refugee]

Worüber reden wir eigentlich? Wir sind sehr off-topic, oder?  

[Kortirion]

Ach was...es ist nur ein wenig globaler geworden.

[DarkAmbient]

Nur mal angemerkt, dass Jobabbau im Dienstleistungssektor nichts Neues ist, auch wenn Allianz und Dresdner Bank das Thema gerade sehr aktuell machen.

Hoffnungsvoll begonnenne Arbeitszeit-Reformmodelle, die weniger Arbeit tatsächlich auf mehr Schultern verteilen, wie bei VW, werden revidiert. Angestellte im öffentlichen Dienst müssen länger arbeiten, ...

Ich sehe keinen großen Anlass, aus dem Dienstleistungssektor Optimismus zu schöpfen.

Auf die UN, als Akteur da etwas zu verbessern, wäre ich im Ernst nie gekommen, dann sogar eher noch die ILO.