Schwarzes Hamburg
Schwarzes Hamburg => Archiv => Festivals & Konzerte Hamburg -Archiv- => Thema gestartet von: Elysium am 08 November 2004, 15:40:08
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We would like to thank those of you who were clever enough to make it to the festival in spite of rumours that Clan of Xymox and Das Ich had cancelled..
according to people at the festival, the DJ at Schwarzen Nacht announced over the PA that the Festival was cancelled
anyone here in the forums who was at SN wednesday or friday who can verify this?
in any case, all 150 of you who turned up will receive a free ticket to Elysium 2005, by presenting your Elysium 2004 ticket at the door (don't lose it!)
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we are so sorry to tell you but:
if your festival was on this friday, please blame kb as we were all on his birthday sitin!
so kbs brithday was an action from LD-René to harm your festival.
That is a very good story. perhaps you should sell it.
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I knew it! It always is kb.
Anywhere, anytime.
kb, your such a baaad boy! :evil:
Vielleicht äußerst sich René ja zu diesen Vorwürfen?
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das wird nen bisschen dauern, fürchte ich:
[07:46:13] -!- LD- is now known as LDberlin
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I was at the schwarze Nacht, but didn`t here any PA-announcement.
I didn`t here and read much of your Festival before. So you should probably think about some better promotion.
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[sober]
Nun, interessantes Timing ...
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An announcement at the Schwarze Nacht on friday would have been too late, anyway. So maybe the Schwarze Nacht on wednesday was ment? All I heard there was Cure songs. Terrible, but not an announcement.
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since we're all a bit suprised about this massive crossposting:
I've been at the Stahlklang at saturday (Markthalle), and I remember that *lots* of elysium postes where in place. (easy to see due to the purple/magenta color).
What's going on? Just a conspiracy?
Nils
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Sober's version of the story is the most plausible... Maybe kb is Hamburg's "King of goth" and he was the guy who covered up the Elysium Posters... 8)
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As I know René, I think this comment of Elysium earns only one answer:
BULLSHIT!
In fact, you accuse René of a Criminal offence.
You should have good evidences to proof your statement. Otherwise, I fear, you'll get a lot of trouble on court.
Your reproach sounds extremly unrealistic.
Lars
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I was at the schwarze Nacht, but didn`t here any PA-announcement.
I didn`t here and read much of your Festival before. So you should probably think about some better promotion.
the Festival was on all the bands websites, posters were up all over Hamburg, there was a foto ad in Szene, flyers were at all clubs and scene shops
how much promotion does Hamburg need?
do we need to give away free tickets and walk people by the hand to the festival :?:
all 100 of the Elysium posters in Hamburg mysteriously disappeared
Markthalle posters have been found with Elysium covered up
we are so sorry to tell you but:
if your festival was on this friday, please blame kb as we were all on his birthday sitin!.
1200 people were at kbs birthday party??? who is kb???
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tell us something about the connection between rene junge and the "schwarze nacht" party, plz.
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A hundred posters disapeared. Because of Renè`s evil influence. Sure.
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dear elysium, due to the gravity of your accusations, i am sure you have some kind of proof to back them. please be so kind and present this evidence and this community will be able to take the proper side. if you cannot show any proof, please understand that we will not take your word over that of a valued member of this community. thank you.
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A few small questions:
- Why should René try to pull of 1200 ppl from the Elysium festival to the Schwarze Nacht when he has in fact no connection to the organisation of that party?
- And second, even if somebody tore down or covered up your posters, what makes you sure that René has done it or was the driving force behind it? Why not anyone else?
- Hamburg's party/concert scene went along pretty well without such kindergarden stuff for years. What makes the Elysium festival so different and so dangerous that a well-known party organiser would totally freak out and do everything possible to make people not come to it?
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as long as we don't get solid proof, i suggest to ignore this topic.
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Das Ich fans came to check for themselves that there was a Festival
after hearing from the DJ at Schwarzen Nacht that it was cancelled
is this true?
they told this to the members of Das Ich
are these people lying? if so, why?
we do not want Hamburg to take our word for anything
being outsiders from Sweden we had no knowlendge of other promoters before we came to Hamburg to do a festival
during the weeks before the event we were warned by everyone that
another promoter was trying to destroy us
we've supported other events in Hamburg with links from our site
we even bought tickets to other events
who could have been involved with removing the promotion?
who would benefit from it?
if this were just a simple party it wouldn't matter to us
when 12.000 EUR are involved then it gets serious
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sorry, you came here to flame someone because your heard from people telling you what they heard? your informations aren't first hand?
I can understand, that it sucks when there aren't enough people coming to a festival you organized. But I cannot understand that you try to blame someone other than perhaps yourself, your team, your advertising partners or the fact that the audience in hamburg isn't what you excepted.
I think, befor you blame someone:
1. get some hard facts and no "I heard something from someone who heard ..."
2. talk to the person himself.
posting this kind flames on one of the mainboard of the hamburg community, without naming a single fact won't make it more easy for you to get some success here.
You earn peoples respect with work and not with flaming others.
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Hmmm....
1. Due to my information René is not involved in all the scene events in Hamburg... "Schwarze Nacht" isn't a "Living Dead" Party.
2. The Line-Up of Out of Line and Elysium is very different.. I don't think that these events are in a competition.
Very strange.. I hope that René will explain his point of view...
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to those responsible for sabotaging the Elysium Festival..
whoever you are
we will survive
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when 12.000 EUR are involved then it's a serious issue
whomeever is responsible for sabotaging the festival owes us 12.000 EUR
Oh, do you know that libel and slander could cost you much more than 12.000 €?
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Das Ich fans came to check for themselves that there was a Festival
after hearing from the DJ at Schwarzen Nacht that it was cancelled
the dj at “schwarze nacht” is called andreas, not rené. these two persons are not related business wise.
they told this to the members of Das Ich
are these people lying? why should they lie?
we do not expect Hamburg to take our word for anything
we can only state was has been told to us by those who claim to know
as others said before, this is third hand information, which doesn’t prove anything.
if we are mistaken, then please prove it to us
and we will appologize to René
nobody has to prove the anything to you, since it is you who is putting up accusations in the first place, hence it is you who has to provide proof. and it is definitely you who will have to appologize to rené.
are these people lying? why should they lie?
what do we care? this is a bad world. you can lie all you like and still become american president.
we were told by this same Markthalle staff that René is involved in all the scene events in Hamburg
then you were told wrong. there are several events rené has nothing to do with.
if René was not involved with removing the promotion
then who?
someone else? perhaps no one? most likely your promotion team, though i do not want to put up accusations that could be wrong.
whomeever is responsible for sabotaging the festival owes us 12.000 EUR
sorry about your loss, but posting here is not going to get you back your money, nor is it going to damage rené.
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i have an idea,
let's let the Hamburg scene investigate what happened and report back to us
we will accept whatever evidence for or against a conspiracy you can give us
revenge is not in our interest
we just want to know what happened
give us some answers please
meanwhile i will edit out all references to René and Living Dead until some concrete evidence arrises
sorry again, but we don't have to prove anything to you. it is you who has to supply proof, or else this debate is meaningless
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you're absolutely right
so, here is some first hand evidence
Q. what physical proof exists of sabotage?
1: Markthalle posters with Elysium date covered over, but not any other event covered over
2: Elysium posters ripped into pieces or removed completely from walls
3: huge stacks of Elysium flyers vanishing overnight
4. 150 people turn up at the door, 30% claim that they were told the festival was cancelled
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Ich bin ziemlich entsetzt und sauer über diese Anschuldigungen von Dorian! Diese Anschuldigungen sind infame Lügen! Ich habe nie etwas gegen dieses Festival unternommen und wüßte auch nicht warum ich das tun soll. Wer mich ein wenig kennt, weiß das ich so etwas NIE tun würde!
Ich bin ziemlich sauer und werde, wenn ich aus Berlin zurück bin noch eine ausführliche Stellungsnahme dazu schreiben! Sollte Dorian diese Aussagen nicht zurück nehmen und sich entschuldigen, werde ich wohl meinen Anwalt einschalten müssen!
STINKSAUER
René
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So, you have paranoia and we have to find the ghost?
you say you come from norway? (sorry if I am wrong)
Maybe your advertising team did bad work and hoped you don't see it, coz you are too far away.
How can SuperTorus see Posters of your Festival on Saturday, when he was in the Markhalle, when they were all gone on Friday?
Why should anyone here, anyone of us ~350 people sabotage your festival?
I ask, because you are coming here and blame us (or anyone from this forum) for sabotaging your event.
I dunno if you know that our right sais: As long as not proven otherwise a person is innocent. So coming here and calling someone a liar and telling people that this person did something without any facts, waiting that he defends himself, is the wrong way...
to denial someone is offence btw.
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- Hamburg's party/concert scene went along pretty well without such kindergarden stuff for years. What makes the Elysium festival so different and so dangerous that a well-known party organiser would totally freak out and do everything possible to make people not come to it?
tickets for Elysium were 20 EUR
a line up including Clan of Xymox, Das Ich, and Lights of Euphoria should pull 800+ people
many people cannot be bothered, or cannot afford to go spend this much money twice within 1 week, or 30+ EUR in the same night
So, you have paranoia and we have to find the ghost?
you say you come from norway? (sorry if I am wrong)
we come from Sweden
we are not being paranoid, the proof of sabotage is as real as it gets
the only question is WHO
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and you think LD sabotaged your party because he feared that there won't be enough coming to the Out of Line festival?
Take a look at the lineup, you should see yourself that it made for differend audience
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who is kb :?:
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who is kb :?:
LOL
You're getting paranoid... stay calm, ok?
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and you think LD sabotaged your party because he feared that there won't be enough coming to the Out of Line festival?
we don't think they have anything to worry about
Take a look at the lineup, you should see yourself that it made for differend audience
yes, exactly! otherwise we would have changed the date of Elysium
that's why we don't understand why someone should do this
unless someone is angry with Sweden perhaps :roll:
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why didn't kb have his birthday party at Elysium????
we have candles
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no promotion was ever removed from Markthalle
that would never work since it was Markthalle who does this promotion
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Ich bin ziemlich entsetzt und sauer über diese Anschuldigungen von Dorian! Diese Anschuldigungen sind infame Lügen! Ich habe nie etwas gegen dieses Festival unternommen und wüßte auch nicht warum ich das tun soll. Wer mich ein wenig kennt, weiß das ich so etwas NIE tun würde!
Ich bin ziemlich sauer und werde, wenn ich aus Berlin zurück bin noch eine ausführliche Stellungsnahme dazu schreiben! Sollte Dorian diese Aussagen nicht zurück nehmen und sich entschuldigen, werde ich wohl meinen Anwalt einschalten müssen!
STINKSAUER
René
i am not the one accusing you René
everyone arround me is feeding me this information
and it hurts!
if you did not do this to us, then i apologise
i have already removed any mention of your name and Living Dead
we just want to know who and why
we've worked so hard on this event for months
and we lost all the money we had in the world
i can't believe that such a thing could happen in hamburg
Dorian
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I'm really surprised, because I did here from a friend who is living in Flensburg (roundabout 80km in the north of Hamburg) that he was at the Elysium Festival and thought it was asskicking. He also was surprised that many of the sceneguys of Hamburg and the cities around where at "Dark & Mystery Music Night" in Neumuenster to watch/listen to medieval bands than visiting Clan of Xymox or Das Ich.
Well, a large number of Hamburgers is in medieval, too.
Could it be they also where there?
kb (an user in this community) did a birthday sit-in at home and invited a lot of his friends who visited him.
I'm not from Hamburg and was totally tired this evening, so I didn't drive the 100km to get to this event. An Saturday evening would be much better to me.
And so there will be much more reasons why only a few people where at this festival.
So, if you just heard about this, why do you crosspost these whereever you're able to?
One topic would be enough. We do can read and we do read, particularly when it has a topic like this.
I really can't imagine René would do something like this, he does anything he can do to let the Hamburger scene live and grow. And he wouldn't sabotage partys or festivals of others. Finally, other parties mean some spare time to him ;)
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3 weeks ago we posted this in the forums
http://www.schwarzes-hamburg.com/viewtopic.php?t=676
we asked people to come out to support the scene at both festivals
Szene came out on 26 Okt with an ad for Elysium and a foto of Das Ich
don't people in the Hamburg scene read Szene and these forums?
no one has been to Marktstrasse and seen the flyers and posters that were everywhere?
all those people we handed flyers to at Schwarzen Nacht for the past weeks
where were thay?
why did people email Das Ich and ask if it was true that the festival was cancelled?
why did they come to Elysium to check if the festival was really happening
if they never heard about it
everyone knew about it, but so many thought it was cancelled that they didn't buy tickets, and they didn't show up
if only 1 person said they heard over a PA that the festival was cancelled
we would wonder, but when 30 people say they heard this...
one of the staff at Markthalle got in our face and told us that RJ was responsible, this is completely shocking coming from people who are supposed to be friends of RJ
we all feel like we were hit by a train
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Why don`t you ask the "Grosse Freiheit 36", where the "Schwarze Nacht" is staged?
I think this is the wrong place to get answers to your questions. AFAIK nobody here heard this PA announcement. And if I take a look at your first "Elysium"-Thread, well, nobody answered it.
Im sorry for you and your lost money, but until now I could`t read or hear any evidence for a sabotage. Maybe you just had "bad luck"?
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but here people did reply...
http://www.schwarzes-hamburg.com/viewtopic.php?t=646
we will ask the people at Grosse Freiheit 36 if they know anything
yes it was very bad luck for us
but still a great festival
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To answer you questions:
I dont read any magazine about the scene
I read this forum
I was in the marktstrasse the last time around 1 and a half year ago
I didn't visit the party in the Große Freiheit.
And, last but not least, I knew about the festival and decidet not to go there.
Perhaps you should realize that you cannot command people to go somewhere. Realize that it can happen, that people don't visit your festival because they don't want to and not, because they didn't know.
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if only 1 person said they heard over a PA that the festival was cancelled we would wonder, but when 30 people say they heard this...
Why should anybody say over the PA on friday night "Schwarze Nacht"-Party that Elysium is canceled..? That doesn't make any sense, cause the party starts at 23h..
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it was not the Schwarzen Nacht on Friday
but a mittwoch night
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To answer you questions:
I dont read any magazine about the scene
I read this forum
I was in the marktstrasse the last time around 1 and a half year ago
I didn't visit the party in the Große Freiheit.
And, last but not least, I knew about the festival and decidet not to go there.
Perhaps you should realize that you cannot command people to go somewhere. Realize that it can happen, that people don't visit your festival because they don't want to and not, because they didn't know.
you need to get out more
of course no promoter can demand that people go to an event
but statistically promoters know how many people an event should draw
and Elysium was an 800+ event
it doesn't matter what 1 person's taste is, it's the taste of the masses
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Well I was at the last Schwarze Nacht on wednesday, too. There are only a few people on wednesdays. I think you`ve just heard a rumor. Because if really 30 people have heard this announcement, this means that everybody from the wednesday night was at your festival. :roll:
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no, you are very wrong.
I meet people from this scene nearly every day.
I go on party 1 or 2 times a weekend.
I just don't go on every festival ;)
oh, and I prefer, like many other people, most private parties or sitins over a disco- or festivalevening.
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Well, Clan Of Xymox where the main act, right? Well, but they are noch seldom to see.
And I`m not sure if Hamburg has so many Das Ich Fans. So who was this promotor? Who said this festival would "draw 800+"?
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Jupp, I think that is the problem. you plan your event for 800+ people, and think that so many people will come, just because you think they would.
You need to know the scene in the place where you want to start that event.
Thinking about the last weeks I haven't heard a single Das Ich song on a Party or in a Disco I was. Perhaps you just had the wrong Lineup for the audience in hamburg.
Just saw another thing:
Compare your announcement thread (view and countwise) with some simple Partythreads int he partyboard. There are many pages of posts for our Kir-Saturday that is nearly every Saturday. When feedback for a disco evening is that much better than for a festival, you could have seen earlier, that you wont get 800 people.
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Hamburg is a big City, the second biggest in Deutschland isn't it?
2 million + people?
there should be enough people in the scene to fill a venue, even if half of the scene is at a pajama party, or playing Bingo Lotto
how can anyone not want to see Das Ich?
their show has more moving parts than the Hamburger DOM
it's true we should spend more time reading the posts in this forum
but not everyone in the scene is posting here
otherwise we would never need any other promotion (which would be much cheaper)
the problem with booking a date for a festival, is that it has to be booked Waaaaay in advance, so almost anything can come up around the same time after the date is set. promotion is like gambling (esp. goth promotion)
Sober, are you the promoter for Kir? we had problems finding Kir since it moved to another venue, we like this club
So who was this promotor? Who said this festival would "draw 800+"?
can you guess why my nick is Elysium? yes! im the promoter :idea:
Das Ich draws 1000+ at their solo shows in many cities
in any case, we would be happy breaking even with 600
but not losing money ;((((
it would be easier and save us time just to hand out money in Hamburg,
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Well, I should as if I get some money for spreading out the Word Kir in the world.
I didn't say, that there arent many people in hamburg or that the Dom is better than Das Ich. I don't visit the Dom ;)
All I tried to say is: You are planing with people. I think you need to know the local scene to call numbers of visitors. You need to know how many people hear what music at the moment, what parties and events are in the same timeframe ... i dont believe that you can have those infos without beeing in the scene or have very much infos from "insiders".
When I think about those people I meet often, I cannot name a single person who would choose a festival with Clan of Xymox and Das Ich over a good private Party.
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Well i read quite a bit of this stuff now ... and as far as i understand u had posters ans flyers and an advertisment at the "szene" magazine ... but nothing in magazines like "orkus" or "zillo" or "sonic seducer" , i think the szene magazine ist not really the best mag to place an advertisment for a goth festival , the readers of that mag are not really the right target group.
And it is a little bit strange that u hab problems to contact the kir people, if u plan an event for more than 800 folks u should do it more professional and i really do not believe that it was impossible to find it /get in contact with the people there.
did u only advertise in hamburg? or also in the citys around like lübeck,flensburg,kiel ... because i dont think that there was a chance to get 800 hamburg people who would enjoy that kind of music ... taste changed an i think hamburg is more ebm than gothic sound like maybe other german cities ...
All in all i think u try to find someone to blame for bad advertisment /planning ....and that i really not fair!
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Hamburg is a big City, the second biggest in Deutschland isn't it?
2 million + people?
That' s correct.
there should be enough people in the scene to fill a venue, even if half of the scene is at a pajama party, or playing Bingo Lotto
This is Hamburg, not Berlin. Here it is quite difficult to establish a new festival oder party, due to the fact that there are quite a lot of parties etc. I just remeber the "Maschinensturm" last time... or the party in the pyramid club, which was cancelled after a few weeks, due to a lack of vistors. Besides that, hanseatic people are quite conservative and bombed by flyers on every event, so a different kind of pr might have been helpful.
Your point of view is correct from a mathematical point of view, but regarding the cultural codes here, the fact that just one weekend later there will take place a festival anyway and the poor pr, I think your point of view ist naive. We always welcome fresh ideas and the suggestion anyone did sabotage on your event, is ridiculous.
AND: we have many students and people who are on the dole, they use to think twice whether to spend their money for a festival or for a few parties.
how can anyone not want to see Das Ich?
their show has more moving parts than the Hamburger DOM
Me. I like the band, but I saw them twice and they sort of stick to their stage performance (the one with the moving parts) as much as the Christians to their bible, as it seems. Therefore I did not feel the need to see it for a third time.
it's true we should spend more time reading the posts in this forum
but not everyone in the scene is posting here
No, that is true. But not everyone is reading flyers as well. On every party there are dozens of flyers on the tables, people get a bit tired of reading them.
Regards,
Jinx
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i would like to add that dark wave isn't that big in hamburg any more. ebm and future pop are. of the 50+ people i know in the gothic scene in hamburg, i don't know a single one who would go and either see clan of xymox or das ich. lights of euphoria on the other hand appeals to the ebm/future pop people, who - as i see it - would not pay to go and see clan or ich. and lights by itself is not likely to justify the expanses for a big line-up of bands. you could do checks in various german goth boards and see what those people think of your line-up. i am affraid you will be disapointed :?
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i would like to add that dark wave isn't that big in hamburg any more. ebm and future pop are. of the 50+ people i know in the gothic scene in hamburg, i don't know a single one who would go and either see clan of xymox or das ich. lights of euphoria on the other hand appeals to the ebm/future pop people, who - as i see it - would not pay to go and see clan or ich. and lights by itself is not likely to justify the expanses for a big line-up of bands. you could do checks in various german goth boards and see what those people think of your line-up. i am affraid you will be disapointed :?
100% agree
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unfortunately we missed the deadline for both Zillo and Orkus by 2 days ;(
i see know how important these forums are in Hamburg
it's a pity i didn't find my way here until very late
i have to agree with all of you that hamburg is a very different scene to any i've promoted in or partied in before
in London the are 2 groups - 1 who go only to gigs and festivals, and 1 who go only to clubs and parties
in Sweden a festival is an outdoor campsite full of drunken vikings
otherwise people go only to parties
in Berlin bands like Clan of Xymox and Das Ich play ALONE to sold out venues, and still there's enough people left over to fill other clubs
in Leipzig everyday is WGT
we wanted a mixed crowd at Elysium, so we chose Lights of Euphoria, and Elusive to draw people who were into musik other than darkwave
but we didn't want to get too elektro and collide with Out of Line
which would be bad for both fests
im glad you mentioned the ticket price, do you think 20 EUR is too high for such a fest?
in Sweden we pay 100 or more for festival tickets, even if the bands suck
in the UK you have to pay people to drag themselves away from the tv
if we could be sure 800 + would turn up, then we could take 18,50 for tickets, the fewer the people, the higher the tickets have to be to break even - it sucks, but that's the sucky world of economics
Markthalle can take 1200 in the Grosse Saal
it costs 2700 EUR total to hire the venue including sound & lighting and all staff + VAT
hotel rooms and catering for 5 bands and crew (30 persons) = another 2000 EUR
Travel = 2000 EUR
Promotions 1500 EUR
Merchandise (T-shirts, blablabla) 800 EUR
Total Band Fees = 6000 EUR
TOTAL = 15.000 EUR
so 750 people at 20 EUR
at 150 people we take 3000 EUR which barely covers the venue
and we lose 12.000 EUR
and that's bad bad bad
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another issue is that we only book bands that we ourselves like
Clan of Xymox and Das Ich are actually friends of ours
so we're a bit biased
also there are plenty of other promoters already doing elektro gigs and fests
and others doing black metal gigs and fests
if we should do a festival with a lineup outside our own taste
then we would do such a fest in a city where 5000 or more would come
and then spend the money on doing fests we like, in a city we like
(we like Hamburg)
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I still don't know how it can be hard to find the Kir.. I just tested typing "kir hamburg" into Google. The first hit was the Kir's website, and two clicks later I had all necessary contact info and the address. Finding out what parties are going on there would have taken me two more clicks at max...
... so whatever ;)
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agree
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As you wrote: bad luck
And friday is not my day …
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we still look for clubs and parties the old fashion way
by picking up flyers
we found out Kir moved only by going to Max Braur Allee and reading the sign
then we tried to find the address using U-bahn maps
but we got lost in Altona ;((