Schwarzes Hamburg
Schwarzes Hamburg => Archiv => Schwarze Szene -Archiv- => Thema gestartet von: Der Uhu am 18 September 2004, 01:57:00
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Well, there are some things I would like to know from our american guests:
- As a subculture that is significantly different in terms of music, political attitude and way of dressing to the so called mainstream culture (or what we call here nicely "Buntvolk" :D ) it may be regarded from conservativ or religious parts of the society as a kind of Bogeyman or enemy of the society. How far is the gothic scene accepted in the USA? Did you ever experience any repressions or prejudices?
- Did the Scene in America evolve somehow in a certain direction. Did it change over the recent years?
- What are the main bands you listen to? Can you recommend something?
- Did anybody (Americans or Germans) make experiences with the scenes in Germany AND the USA. What differences did you recognize? Are there actually any differences within the US (e.g. East and Westcoast)?
If anybody has more questions about gothics in America just post it below.
Der Uhu
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I'm 29 and I've been in the goth scene since I was about 15-16. I went to high school In SF and there wasn't very many goths or darksider's in my school. We were always treated pretty fairly. I mostly bought my clothes at "Goodwill" or "The Salvation army". I would mainly wear fishnets and a kilt or If I wanted to dress up, I wore white vintage wedding dresses. I think the goth community changed when Mr. Manson came out. The younger goth crowd started wearing really baggy black clothes. "Hot Topic" Is huge here.
As far as music goes.......
I'm mainly into older stuff, The Cure, Bahaus, The Cult, The Sister's Of Mercy, Nina Haugen, Missing Person's, The Pixie's, KMFDM, Thrill Kill Kult, I do enjoy some punk. The Vibrator's are a fun band to see. I also love "The Cramp's". The Creature's.
As far as politics go, I hate BUSH! He's made our country a nightmare! The economy has gone down hill. I think our troops should come home and let the Iraq's sort their mess out for themselves. They want us to leave, then we should. I hate a lot of our polltical leaders. It's so expensive to get medical insurance in the u.s. Everyone wants to sue someone. People here love their money. Everyone here owns at least one car. I'm guilty too, I also have a motorcycle. / I know I'm complaining about the u.s., but there's a lot of positives. We have big roads to drive on, easier to buy a home here(more land), lots of cities to visit,everything is convient, a huge variety of things to do and states to travel to.
So, what's Germany like?
What are the people like?
Are there any Fanberg's there? (last name)
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things in america a very bleek right now in terms of subculture - the media here has made everything cool, and acceptable, they stole the underground and sold it to the mainstream, rendering it meaningless and no longer subversive - 15 years ago you had to have alot of guts to walk around looking like a freak but now, nobody looks twice, they've seen manson on mtv, and lots of other fashion bands that suck! But - due to the current political climate and the media situation, the corrupt music industry that has ruined the chances of good music being made and sold, etc. a new underground is starting to form, right wing radicals who believe in true independence... renegade sientists, real cyber punks... who believe a big change is comming and that the current ruling class will meet a crisis that will lead to it's fall. Most of my friends aren't for bush or his opponent - the music I listen to varries alot, but I am searching for something new and good, I like electronic but alot of the new stuff is pretty boring. I like old industrial too, alot of european stuff. Krafwerk, front 242... old wax trax, and 4AD, also like some noise, IDM, but really hate the new crop of EBM - just sounds like disco.
As far as differences between parts of the country go - they are major - America is BIG - and every city is very diff - the regions have distinct characteristics and the people reflect this - I am in a band that tours, and I have been in almost every goth club in the united states - they are all differnt - some of them are retro, some are very industrial, some are bibg and filled with beautiful people in corsets, and some of them are dingy little holes filled with dorky teens from the suburbs - you never know what you are going to get - some of them like metal, and some of them spin nothing but VNV Nation.
alright that's all.
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So, what's Germany like?
Hi there, I´m pretty sure that many people here expect me to say that Germany sucks. But I won´t. Life here is easy, ok, in the western part of this country it is more easy as in the east. But all in all we have everything we need (except of enough jobs, but on the other side there are enough people who are too lazy to get a job or go to work, because they get enough money from the state...but that´s another story). Many of our cities look pretty nice, nevertheless the great cities get bombed to the ground in WWII, so you will find typical old buildings mainly in small cities and villages. We don´t have such giant cities as New York or LA. Berlin has about 3 million citizens, Hamburg 1.8 million and these are the biggest citties you can goto.
The clubs vary from location to location. You will find everything here what you might find in the US.
What are the people like?
Most people here are very peaceful but in some ways we are still the Germans who sometimes fullfil the cliches everybody knows. You know we are introverted, have no sense for humor and we are illiberal. What I realy hate is the slowliness in which decissions are made in the politics. Everybody only wants to get get get, nobody thinks about how to accomplish that or to better the life for all people. No one seams to be able or willing to act more anticipatory. This behavior now has its climax in the last elections in Sachsen and Brandenburg. The stupids have elected two Nazi-Partys. One of it would have been forbidden last year if things would have done more consequently (!). And now this particular party gets money from the country to further the politics of its fascistic members! It is unbelievable...but I am still pretty sure that this trend will cease back to nothingness as soon as these stupids have to deal with real problems and lack the needed solutions, because their kind of thinking doesn´t work in a democracy.
The temper of the people differs from state to state. The people in north Germany (i. e. Hamburg) are notoriously hard to come by. But when you know them better you will get some of the best friends and listners you can get.
Hamburg is also one of the most liberal citys in Germany. It is not as cosmopolitical as Berlin, but the people here show a much more attitude of understatement (what I prefer very much). And it is the most beautiful city in its size you will find in this country (some say in whole Europe) :wink:
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I've met an Goth girl from Seattle at the WGT festival in Leipzig and we talked for quite a while. So maybe her words are interesting for you,
btw, she was jewish and she thought before coming to Germany that all Germans would "eat her alive".
First of all she was astonished that everybody here was quite helpful in comparision to other european countries she has visited. She mentioned that many people took care of her, taking time so that she got good descriptions and hints.
She also noted that most Germans are tall in comparision and many guys were appealing to her. She said that people were very tactful to her.
Surprising for her were the multicultural picture of the cities, as she thought that the USA would be multicultural. But she recognised that Germany is a melting pot, with many people from eastern Europe, Turkey and beyond.
She liked the well used public bus system in Leipzig.
Public transportation has a more signifanct role here.
And she was really fascinated by the old buildings in Leipzig.
But maybe she was not long enough here to see the down sides :)
What bluediva writes about differences in style between different county areas are quite simliar here. Also the country is much smaller, so the changes are more rapid if you measure in kilometers. Drive 200 km and you're in a different geographical terrain, a different general attitute in the clubs, a different structure social and economical. As marks you could say Berlin, Hamburg, Ruhrpott (Dortmund, Bochum, Köln...) Leipzig and Munich. That would give you geographical centres that differ in many points. Germany has only 360.000 square kilometers, with 80 Million people. It's not crowded here, but you won't find a big piece of wilderness here.
So what are we like?
Peaceful is really a good description.
Rick description hits the mark in most points.
Certainly things differ from class to class, either social or educational.
In the last years the rift between the poor and the middle class increases. Education is a big issue nowadays here, as social security and health care.
Many people are loosing in the growing preassure of the Globalisation.
We're one of the last world wide refugee areas for Heavy Metal :)
Metal is quite more common here than in other european contries.
Why is Hamburg such a beautiful city?
In the middle lies a big lake, the Alster, which gives Hamburg an unique city image. Our city centre is build arround this lake. To the south of the centre lies our beloved river Elbe. It's easy to go to the river, relax there and watch the activities in our international port on the other riverside.
Green, is a fitting description, we have many parks in town and nearly no streets not flanked by trees. Air pollution is not an big issue, air is quite good. Weather is a bit rainy, if you like weather in London, you will like it here.
Surprising for you would maybe that we have nealry no skyscrapers. Buildings with more than ten floors are really rare.
Half a dozen of big old churches standing in the centre and many smaller are in the suburbs. A few old court buildings are one of those buildings that survived the bombing attacks of the Worldwar.
Famous and quite nice is the "Reeperbahn", here you find many clubs, casinos, bars and hookers. For the alternative music taste, four clubs qualify, the Grünspan, Kaiserkeller, B-Side and Headbangers Ballroom.
Playing Heavy Metal, Independant and Gothic on different days.
And there is not such a thing as seperation between Gothics, Metall, Independant and Punk.
It's an old trading town, and this reflects in many buildings and attitudes.
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@Drachenkind
| We're one of the last world wide refugee areas for
| Heavy Metal :) Metal is quite more common here than
| in other european contries.
Really? Where? I'm sorry but I think the Metal-scene here (especially Hamburg, cause I'm living here since a few month ago; and except Wacken (http://www.wacken.com/)) is a bit... let's say »poor«. Well, I just can compare Hamburg to Austria/Vienna, but (Power- / Death- / Black- / ...)Metal is much more flourishing there.
p
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@Drachenkind
| We're one of the last world wide refugee areas for
| Heavy Metal :) Metal is quite more common here than
| in other european contries.
Well in europe ^^ also in japan metal is quite popular and many bands tour especially there because the people there are mad for metal and other guitar stuff
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Sounds a bit like vienna. May the austrian Metal-scene is that large, because it isn't at all. Many Bands, many Parties, some Bars (I count 3 to 5 but only one matters *eg*). But at all it's a big family in that little country in the south.
It's clear that (most of the) bands also like this way it goes, 'cause they can get more in touch with their fans.
Btw: You saw that it was Drachenkind sayin' this, and I just quoted it?
p
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My two cents:
This behavior now has its climax in the last elections in Sachsen and Brandenburg. The stupids have elected two Nazi-Partys. One of it would have been forbidden last year if things would have done more consequently
- If Rick Deckard writes that there were Nazi Parties elected in Saxonia and Brandenburg it sounds like they were now in Power and that the future Ministerpresident would be one of them. I know, you didn't mean that but it sounds a little bit like that. Fact is that many people chose this way of protesting against the government and they elected these parties. So they got some more votes than expected but they are still under 10 percent. In West Germany they are lucky if they get 1 percent. In east Germany they sometimes manage to reach the 5%-obstacle and so they come into the regional Parliaments. And if these parties are really Nazi-parties or just far right parties is another question. In Texas or Alabama they would be probably nothing else than normal Republicans. But they are something to worry about. That's for sure!
It's not crowded here, but you won't find a big piece of wilderness here.
- Well, if your definition of "Big" is Yellowstone Nationalpark or Serengeti National Park, than you are probably right. But still 30% of Germany is Forest, in Bavaria even 49%. And there are a lot of relatively large regions where Nature is quite intact. And you would be surprised what you can see even in the city of Hamburg. Go to the Duvenstedter Brook in the North of Hamburg. That is a big moor where you can watch sea eagles, a heron colony, cranes, boars and red deer! And that so close to the city! Even beavers are returning to many rivers in North Germany. And in Mecklenburg they even have some wolves again who immigrated from Poland.
Greetings
Der Uhu
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@ Rick Deckard: I don't think that anybody expects from you to say that life in Germany sucks and I also don't think that so many people have that opinion.
But aren't we now a bit Off-topic?
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How far is the gothic scene accepted in the USA? Did you ever experience any repressions or prejudices?
I'd say goths are tolerated in the U.S. alot more than they used to be, but they certainly aren't completely accepted. Even though the shock value wore off along time ago, goths are still kind of viewed as freaks and oddballs, especially in the smaller towns in rural states like Tennessee or Iowa.
I haven't really experienced much prejudice in the last few years. Occationally, I might get called a freak or a fag by a bunch of hick tourists or mexicans driving past a club in a pickup truck, but that's about all.
Did the Scene in America evolve somehow in a certain direction. Did it change over the recent years?
The U.S. scene has changed alot. In what direction the change depends on where you live. Certainly in CA, industrial has become more popular at the clubs; most likely because its more danceable. Also, the fetish and S&M influence has become more obvious.
What are the main bands you listen to? Can you recommend something?
I'm a big Rammstein and Type O Negative fan. I like some industrial stuff like KMFDM and Front 242; some older deathrock/punk stuff like Christian Death, the Cramps, and the Misfits; I listen to some goth stuff such as the Cure, Siouxsie and the Banshees, and X-mal Deutschland; some 80's/early 90's post punk stuff like Husker Du, the Pixies, and the Smiths; and I also occationally listen to some psychobilly/rock-a-billy stuff too. The list really is endless. As for making recommendations, I would prefer if someone recommended something new for me to listen to.
Did anybody (Americans or Germans) make experiences with the scenes in Germany AND the USA. What differences did you recognize? Are there actually any differences within the US (e.g. East and Westcoast)?
I've never been to Europe, so I wouldn't know how to compare Germany with the U.S. However, as far as the differences between East and West Coast scenes go, I've pretty much already answered that question in a couple of other threads; but, yes, there is a difference, and from what I've seen and heard, that difference is like night and day.
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So, what's Germany like?
What are the people like?
Are there any Fanberg's there? (last name)
woot, you're from minneapolis? i went there 4 years ago, visited the "ground zero" (guess its name got changed). they had gogo-dancers in blue-red-white costumes, doing michael jackson dance moves - that really freaked me out...
germany is great. though the u.s. has more & better movies, tv programs, theme parks, and breast implants, so u guys are okay.
people here are taller, less fat (though on the right track, thanks for mcdonalds and pizza hut), and better educated. and known for their modesty and politeness :)
no fanbergs in hamburg, sorry. you do know that it's "fanbergs", not "fanberg's", right? no offense meant!
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Yes, I know how to type, just didn't feel I needed to constantly correct my errors, especially If you can read my mistakes ;) Thanks though.
Thanks for answering all my questions and for a warm welcome.
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just wondering: what are americans doing on schwarzes-hamburg.com?
and how are faribault and mancato doing? :)
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@ olli: For explanation have a look here (http://www.schwarzes-hamburg.com/viewtopic.php?t=447&start=0). On the bottom of the first post is an explanation in german. There are also links to other threads in english and to some american forums.
Faribault and Mancato? Are that people from Minnesota?
@ redghost: And what is with that name Fanberg? It sound german because it end on -berg, but I never heard of any person called Fanberg. Must be a very rare name. Or it is not from our region. There are significant differences between the regions of Germany. In South Germany very different family names are common than here.
The question how Germany is like is quite difficult to answer and it would take probably ages to answer it. We call a question like that "Gretchen"-question. That are questions that are so generell that you just can't answer them. The original Gretchen-question was "What do you think about religion?" and is from a book by Goethe who is something like our Shakespear, only better.
I can only say that there is not much truth in what many people think about germans. But some things are true.
True is: Germans drink a lot of beer, they tend to be not very emotional but rational, they like to organize things which leads often to overorganisation and bureaucracy, they do build the best cars in the world, soccer is a serious business in Germany especially when we play against England and Holland and we like to beat the Americans at the winter Olympics.
NOT TRUE is that Hitler is still alive, Germans hate jews, that Germany started existing in 1933, all germans are wearing Lederhosen and dance Schuhplattler, we fly around in Zeppelins (even though I would like to do that), that we pronounce 'r' like 'rrrrrrrrr' (only Hitler did that) and that Sauerkraut is a common german speciality.
And another point to mention is that german is the best language on the planet to swear at each other. In english there is only "fucking this", "bloody that" and bitch or cunt and that was it. In contrast german has probably thousands of swearing words and a large variety of possibilities to insult each other. A curious fact is that we do not have a swearing word for Americans even though that was urgently needed in the recent months! :wink:
Greetings
Der Uhu
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I was told very little about my last name and was only told that It came from Germany.
Der Uhu Invited us here to explore. He/she was visiting gothling.com and introduced him/her self and invited us to check out your board. I was curious and did. I probably wont stay too long though, I can't read or speak German and will lose interest, Cause It's not fun not knowing what others are talking about.
Fairbault and Mankato are about an hour or so away from Minneapolis, I don't know too much about those towns.
I drink more Jagemiester (sp) than beer.
True: Americans love their cars, money, power, eating, drinking and being entertained.
As far as religion goes.....That's a tough question. There's so many different religions here. We are the melting pot, with so many cultures of people living here.
I like being an american, I can go anywhere anytime, there's more jobs here than probably anywhere, the u.s. Is still safer than most other countries, more land, our dollar Is strong. As far as sports goes, I hate sports, I find It rather boring. food Is cheap, the u.s, makes It really easy for anyone to own a car. We don't have the best trasit system In Minneapolis. I never owned a car when I lived In California. Seattle has a crappy trasit system too.
If you prefer to stay a German board, I have no problems leaving, I didn't mean to offend anyone here. Thanks for your time.
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The Germans can't help you cuz you're name might not be German. Try A Swedish forum next time...... :wink:
Anyway, this took me about 2 min. Here's a link that might give you a clue about your name. I hope you find it helpful.
http://genforum.genealogy.com/fanberg/
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Schneeball...if you like Type O Negative you should try the 69 EYES...my favorite band :mrgreen: http://www.69eyes.com or http://www.the69eyes.org
They are from Finland...so are Sentenced...they call their stuff gothic rock.
Another great band is Hanoi Rocks...sound like Ramones.
Or Spiha http://www.spiha.net ...also from Finland...they sound a bit like Doors...psychedelic etc...
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@ redghost:
If you prefer to stay a German board, I have no problems leaving, I didn't mean to offend anyone here. Thanks for your time.
Hi! ...to offend anyone here? Did I miss something? Nobody offended you and you didn't offend anybody. OK, perhaps olli's posting may be a bit offensive but I am sure he meant it as a kind of joke.
You may understand that we are a german forum with several hundred members. We can not force them all to write in english. But I think that we had quite a nice conversation with the Americans in this forum and a lot of Germans are keen to write further in english. So I have to say that I do not understand really your point. If you want to dicuss something, just open a thread in english. "Schneeball" from California did so for example. But if you decide to leave let me tell you that it was nice to have you here.
Greetings
Der Uhu
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Nordlicht, thanks for the links. I checked out both. I really wish there were some mp3 or wave samples on 69eyes' site, because I would have liked to hear more than just one song. Their video was pretty good though, if not just for the multitude of hot model actresses that appear in it. Spiha was also very good. I can see that they're really into AOR in Finland, much more than in the U.S.
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I'm 29 and I've been in the goth scene since I was about 15-16. I went to high school In SF and there wasn't very many goths or darksider's in my school. We were always treated pretty fairly. I mostly bought my clothes at "Goodwill" or "The Salvation army". I would mainly wear fishnets and a kilt or If I wanted to dress up, I wore white vintage wedding dresses. I think the goth community changed when Mr. Manson came out. The younger goth crowd started wearing really baggy black clothes. "Hot Topic" Is huge here.
Hallo! Ich habe heute dieses Forum gefunden. Ja!! OK, since this is in English, I will write in English. (It's also easier for me to do so.)
I will have to agree with a lot of what redghost said about her experience being a Goth in America. I'm not a Goth (well, physically), though I have Gothic friends, and I enjoy Gothic music and the culture. I am 26 years old, and when I was in high school, we had one Goth in 1500 students. We also had 2 punks (both from Holland). I was good friends with the Goth, and it seemed most people just let her (and the punks) be. There were no problems. These 3 were also the nicest 3 of everyone.
Today is a different story. You go to any high school and you see Goth-wannabes. I feel there are very few actual "true" Goths in today's youth culture in America. Hot Topic is huge... but that's really pop-Gothic or mall-Gothic. It's a fashion statement, even though these kids say they are Goth. Once this "fad" ends, these so-called Gothic kids will be on to the next style of clothing. Most of thes ekids wouldn't know Robert Smith if he walked into them.
As for how Goths are viewed... I cannot say for sure, but I do know that some people are frightened by and worried about those that are Gothic. People automatically associate them with Satan. It kind of came about with Marilyn Manson, I feel. Many non-Goths see Manson as being Goth. And the urban myth is that Marilyn Manson is a Satanist. Therefore, all Goths are Satanists. Hence people are "afraid." Plus, people are not comfortable around what they do not know. However, I feel it is more accepted today than it was 10, or even 5, years ago.
The bands I listen to (they are not all Goth)... Lacuna Coil, Moonspell, In Flames, Poisonblack, Evergrey, EverEve, Tristania, Nightwish, The Gathering, In Extremo, Oomph!, Rammstein, Genitorturers, AFI, and many more. Most Euro-Goth bands are FAR better than the American Goth bands.
I have yet to experience the scene here in Hamburg. I just moved here 2 weeks ago. I don't know anyone yet (except those I work with, and I don't think they would be into the scene), and I do not feel comfortable enough with the city to go out alone at night to find these things out. I am very interested in the clubs (though I don't dance... I just want to listen to the music and people watch), and the big parties that are put on. Maybe I'll find some friends here that would be willing to show me around.
And for the scene I experienced in America... I lived in Tampa, Florida, and there is one Goth club there. I've been there a few times, and there I have seen real and fake Goths. It's a very cool place to hang out, with very cool people. Peter Steele has been spotted there a time or two as well when he's in town for a show. That's really all there is for a Goth scene there... except for the pop-Goth kids that hang around the mall. Haha.
Naja... ich denke, dass Hamburg eine bessere Schwarze-Szene als Tamps hat, aber das weiss ich noch nicht. In America many of us are anxious to go to Europe since the Gothic scene seems to be much more here than there. But I guess maybe that really only applies to London (where I hear there are some awesome clubs and a pretty decent scene)?