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[Der Uhu]

@ Schneeball: Then Dick and Bush fit very good together right? A fertile partnership so to say.

But I came to the opinion that Bush is annoying but he is not the worst. I mean how does that come that Bush is so much critizised and everybody is complaining about the US but in some countries in Africa some hundred thousend people get killed (Angola 1,6 Million in three years and nobody knows) and nobody really cares? Let's face it: China's government is ten times worse, Sudan's government far more brutal, the US are still a save place and they are still allies of us. The US-troops tortured some people, OK, and every arabian is complaining about that, OK, but that this is absolutely normal in arabian prisons, everywhere in the arabian world people are tortured and held under terrible conditions. But I can not see a single Muslim protesting against that. When americans torture a muslim that is bad, but when muslims torture other muslims, is that OK than? I think it has a lot to do with fashion and good pictures in the TV to declare the US as the enemy. And I think that if you compare equal things with each other you get a completely other picture. I mean if you compare Germany with the USA that is unfair because Germany is much smaller. But if you compare europe with the US than there are as many weird things happening in Europe than in the US. For example whale hunting in Norway, the mafia ruling half of Italy, the most stupid conflict of the world in North Ireland, Berlusconi owning 80% of the Italian media, 20 people killing themselves in Switzerland because they think a spaceship will come to bring their souls to heaven, british soccer fans rioting through the streets and vandalising shops altough their team has won, two thousand jerks chasing some bulls through the city just to have the pleasure to see them killed in an unfair fight. And? Who is going to think that Europe is a weird continent? Nobody.

[Laetitia]

@Uhu: You´re an ass kissing machine, right?

[Drachenkind]

There is one big difference between your examples and the way thinks go.

The USA is an democracy.
Angola, Ruanda, China are authority states. Angola is ruled by an former warlord (modern political definition).
So if in the USA something goes wrong, it shows an deficit in the check & balance system.

If US-Soldiers torture someone, it shows that in this Democracy someone hasn't instructed them about the Warprisoner Act of Genf.
If you declare you fight Saddam Hussein, 'cause he is developing mass weapons and for commiting crimes against human rights, then a development like this is devasting. No weapon of mass destruction found and your own troops comitting human rights abuse.

Something which really disgust me.
The Nazi regime has rightfully been sentenced in the Nürnberg court after WW2 for leading an war of attack.
The war against Iraq is by all means an war of attack. Kofi Anan called out the truth lately.
It's against the same international law the USA self installed. This crime against international law will cost us all dearly.
Except for self defense (as against USA vs. Taliban/Al-Quida-Afghanistan)
everything else is war of attack.
The bully behaviour of the USA in international politics alienates the European society, as shown in the Europe wide protest for peace before the Iraq war.

Europe is the most advanced political concept of all times!
The peaceful cooperation and integration of 25 nations is unique in world history. As we live and experience it everyday, it's normal for us.
But count the number of war since the development of the nation concept, so lets say 212 years (the whole US-history), and look to the present. Poland was 14 years ago our enemy in the Warsaw Pact. Now it's our partner. Europe is an jewel of human developent.
That makes it so complicate. There is no exampel, no role model for Europe.



Sir Peter Ustinov said a few days before the Iraq war started at the question how he thinks that Europe is divided in two partys, one for and one against the war (refering to UK, Poland, Italy vs. France, Germany):
"I can't see any seperation in Europe, look to the streets and realise, the European people stand united in this question. They don't want this war."

My most loved phrase from this time is:
"Bombing for peace, is like fucking for virginity"

[Der Uhu]

@ Drachenkind: I agree with you. But if you read my text you will see that I also condemn what the americans have done. What I just wanted to say is that many of us like to critizise the US. And also to critizise the americans themselves. I think that it is beside of the justified critisism there is also just simple anti-americanism. Which is NOT justified.
I am great supporter of the EU and I am proud of the things we achieved. But prejudices are not among these things. It is just not fair that I get applause when I say that americans are brainless ignorants and imerialists, which is a quite common notion and not true. And to proof that americans are jerks they use things like the stupid questions about europe their tourists like to ask, these very odd christian fundementalist there, abortion fighters, their hyper-nationalism, the rassism.... And they do that without seeing that in europe things like that happen too. Oh yes! There is a good development in europe, certainly, but there are also some VERY strange people here too. We have also religious fundamentalist, racists, nationalist in the EU. Unfortunately. Is Berlusconi better than Bush? NO he isn't! He has only a smaller army.
My point is, critizise them wherever you like but not because it is fashion, only if you have really a reason to do so and make a difference between their government and the americans. That is my opinion, even if some people call me ass kissing machine for that.


By the way, that all has to do with why I invited the americans in our forum. I found that is a better way than throwing dirt on each other.
Der Uhu

[Drachenkind]

@Uhu
I agree with you about the prejudices and the simple anti-americanism.
As I have often enough in the last time taken a stand here against it.
Maybe not as often as taking part in the Bush-bashing.  :roll:
But you put thing together which hardly are comparable.
As the behaviour of totalitarian/autorial nations and Democracys.
A Democracy has higher standarts then an dictatorship.
So the lack of human rights in an dictatorship is not an justification for an Democracy to abolish human rights. Neither in it's own country or an foreign country.
This in reference to the torture issue.
But I can also see your point that Europe is not an Utopia. I'am only much more caution to compare.  The USA is in many points unique, but as it has it's roots (political/social) in Europe, looks sometimes familiar. This fools us Europeans with not enough knowledge about the USA that the US is only an other European country in some way.
Btw, I enjoy the postings of Schneeball and the others and it was an real good idea to bring them in!!!



About Berlusconi - Bush  
We have not a single political institution in Europe, that has such far reaching rights as the US-presidental system. Even the french have not such an powerful president, as they have an cabinet with ministers. The US secretry of state are quite powerless in formal rights. Which is easily shown with the dominating presence of Condoleezza Rice. She is just an advisor, but her influence in foreign politics was more powerful than Powell for an period.
In addition an bunch of special rights the US president can handle. The right to cancle an union strike (harbour worker strike was finished this way) if it suits the nation, only one less known. The candidate selection for the supreme court is maybe the most powerful.
Also Berlusconi is like an kraken in italian politics, the EU survived his EU-presidental time without problems, except for an stall in developemt and some broken nerves. As he hasn't much real power and the other institutions took over.


I guess something that flares up now, esspecially in Germany.
We have experienced the USA as an benevolent, watching big brother for 50 years.
With this politic, they banned the Nazi from regaining power, build up an Democracy and helped us rebuilding our war torn economy.
They cuddled us, for being the front state against the Warsaw Pact.
We adapted for a long time to the american cultural influence.
The illussion of being similiar in culture (as American culture replaced much German culture after WW2 ) showed up. This decreases since the end of the Warsaw Pact.
But this change has nothing to do with USA-Germany, more with our integration into Europe.
And now we recognise that we share a great number of fundamental political ideas, but interpret them and weight them differently from time to time.
The illussion of an common culture is breaking up. The cuddle is over, the USA treats us, similiar as Japan, as competion. Unfamiliar a bit for us.
With our history, we found our home in the arms of our fellow Europeans.
Which calmed their and our fears of German stand-alone politic. This certainly disturbes us, when we see the US politics and interpret them as "Rambo on warpath". The difference in the acting of an Superpower or an middle power like Germany, is not understand by the normal street Joe.
Such major issues like Iraq distract from the fact that we cooperate in 90% of all things. Also the US conservative are real good in claiming the media. But going for the media would make this long posting even longer.
This as my explanation to understand the growing singleminded perception here of the United States.


But maybe Schneeball could give us a view from the other side of the Atlantic how the USA-German relation is perceived.
Esspecially as the French took most of the brunt for resisting the Iraq war and not we, which surprised me. Even as I know the importance of France in the American War of Independance.