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[Trakl]

Hier mal ein anderer Text. Leider habe ich nur die Englische Version von 1561 gefunden, das Buch kam aber auf italienisch schon 1508 oder so raus. ("Il Cortegiano" von Baldassare Castiglione)


"The L. Julian looked the L. Gaspar would have proceaded on still, but whan he sawe nowe that he helde his peace, he said: Of the unperfectnes of women me thinke you have alleaged a verye cold reason, wherunto (albeit may happ it were not now meete to entre into these subtil pointes) I answere accordinge to the opinion of him that is of skill, and accordinge to the truth, that Substance in what ever thinge it be, can not receive it more or less: for as no stone can be more perfectlye a stone, then an other:

as touchinge the beeinge of a stone: nor one blocke more perfectlie a blocke, then an other: no more can one man be more perfectlye a man then an other, and consequentlye the male kinde shall not be more perfect, then the female, as touchinge his formall substance: for both the one and the other is conteined under the Species of Homo, and that wherein they differ is an accidentall matter and no essentiall. In case you will tell me that the man is more perfecte then the woman, thoughe not as touchinge the essentiall, yet in the Accidentes, I answere that these accidentes must consist eyther in the bodye or in the minde:
yf in the bodye, bicause the man is more sturdier, nimbler, lighter, and more abler to endure travaile, I say that this is an argument of smalle perfection: for emonge men themselves such as abounde in these qualities above other, are not for them the more esteamed: and in warr, where the greatest part of peinfull labours are and of strength, the stoutest are not for all that the moste set bye. Yf in the mind, I say, what ever thinges men can understande, the self same can women understande also:
and where it perceth the capacitie of the one, it may in likewise perce the others. Here after the L. Julian had made a litle stopp, he proceaded smilinge: Do you not know that this principle is helde in Philosophy, Who so is tender of flesh is apt of mind? Therfore there is no doubt, but women beeing tenderer of flesh, are also apter of minde, and of a more enclined witt to musinges and speculations, then men.

Afterward he folowed on: But leaving this a part, bicause you said that I should make my proof of the perfection of ech of them by the woorkes, I saye unto you, if you consider the effectes of nature, you shall finde that she bringeth women furth as they be, not at a chaunce, but fittlye necessary for the ende. For albeit she shapeth them of bodye not stoute and of a milde minde, with manye other qualities contrarye to mens, yet doe the condicions of eche of them stretch unto one self ende, concerning the self same profit. For even as through that weake feeblenes women are of a lesser courage, so are they also by the verye same more warie.

Therefore moothers nourish up children and fathers instruct them, and with manlines provide for it abrode, that they with carefull diligence store up in the house, which is no lesse praise. In case you wil then consider the auntient Histories (albeit men at all times have bine verie sparing in writinge the prayses of women) and them of latter dayes, ye shall finde that continually vertue hath raigned aswell emong women as men: and that suche there have bine also that have made warr and obteined glorious victories, governed realmes with
great wisdome and justice, and done what ever men have done. As touchinge sciences, do you not remember ye have read of so manie that were well seene in Philosophie? Other, that have bine most excellent in Poetrye? Other, that have pleaded, and both accused and defended beefore Judges most eloquentlye? Of handicraftes, longe it were to reherse, neither is it needfull to make any rehersall therof. If then in the esentiall substance the man is no more perfect then the woman, nor yet in the Accidentes (and of this beeside reason, the experiences are seene) I wote not wherein this his perfection shoulde consist.

[Sapor Vitae]

Hm, hast Du den Text von Thomas Hoby?  

Habe unter diesem Link (http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~rbear/courtier/courtier.html)
dazu etwas recht Interessantes gefunden, nämlich eine Zusammenfassung, wie eine Frau sein soll. Ganz schön viele Anforderungen irgendwie.

OF THE CHIEF CONDITIONS AND QUALITYES IN A WAYTYNG GENTYLWOMAN

* To be well born and of a good house.
* To flee affectation or curiositie.
* To have a good grace in all her doinges.
* To be of good condicions and wel brought up.
* To be wittie and foreseing, not heady and of a renning witt.
* Not to be haughtie, envious, yltunged, lyght, contentious nor untowardlye.
* To win and keepe her in her Ladies favour and all others.
* To do the exercises meete for women, comlye and with a good grace.
* To take hede that give none accasion to bee yll reported of.
* To commit no vice, nor yet to be had in suspition of any vice.
* To have the vertues of the minde, as wisdome, justice, noblenesse of    courage, temperance, strength of the mide, continency, sobermoode, etc.
* to be good and discreete.
* To have the understandinge beinge maried, how to ordre her husbandes substance, her house and children, and to play the good huswyef.
* To have a sweetenesse in language and a good uttrance to entertein all kinde of men with communication woorth the hearing, honest, applyed to time and place and to the degree and dispostion of the person which is her principall profession.
* To accompany sober and quiet maners and honesty with a livelie quicknesse of wit.
* To be esteamed no lesse chast, wise and courteious, then pleasant, feat conceited and sober.
* Not to make wise to abhorr companie and talke, though somewhat of the wantonnest, to arrise and forsake them for it.
* To geve the hearing of such kinde of talke with blushing and bashfulnesse.
* Not to speake woordes of dishonestye and baudrye to showe her self pleasant, free and a good felowe.
* Not to use over much familyaritie without measure and bridle.
* Not willinglie to give eare to suche as report ill of other women.
* To be heedfull in her talke that she offend not where she ment it not.
* To beeware of praysinge her self undiscreatlye, and of beeing to tedious and noysome in her talke.
* Not to mingle with grave and sad matters, meerie jestes and laughinge matters: nor with mirth, matters of gravitie.
* To be circumspect that she offend no man in her jesting and tauntynge, to appeere therby of a readye witt.
* Not to make wise to knowe the thing that she knoweth not, but with sobernesse gete her estimation with that she knoweth.
* Not to come on loft nor use to swift measures in her daunsinge.
* Not to use in singinge or playinge upon instrumentes to muche devision and busy pointes, that declare more cunning then sweetenesse.
* To come to daunce, or to showe her musicke with suffringe her self to be first prayed somewhat and drawen to it.
* To apparaile her self so, that she seeme not fonde and fantasticall.
* To sett out her beawtye and disposition of person with meete garmentes that shall best beecome her, but as feininglye as she can, makyng semblant to bestowe no labour about it, nor yet to minde it.
* To have an understandinge in all thinges belonginge to the Courtier, that she maye gyve her judgemente to commend and to make of gentilmen according to their worthinesse and desertes.
* To be learned.
* To be seene in the most necessarie languages.
* To drawe and peinct.
* To daunse.
* To devise sportes and pastimes.
* Not to be lyghte of creditt that she is beloved, thoughe a man commune familierlye with her of love.
* To shape him that is oversaucie wyth her, or that hath small respecte in hys talke, suche an answere, that he maye well understande she is offended wyth hym.
* To take the lovynge communication of a sober Gentylman in an other signifycatyon, seeking to straye from that pourpose.
* To acknoweleage the prayses whyche he giveth her at the Gentylmans courtesye, in case she can not dissemble the understandinge of them: debasynge her owne desertes.
* To be heedefull and remembre that men may with lesse jeopardy show to be in love, then women.
* To geve her lover nothing but her minde, when eyther the hatred of her husband, or the love that he beareth to others inclineth her to love.
* To love one that she may marye withall, beeinge a mayden and mindinge to love.
* To showe suche a one all signes and tokens of love savynge suche as maye put hym in anye dyshonest hope.
* To use a somewhat more famylyar conversation wyth men well growen in yeeres, then with yonge men.
* To make her self beloved for her desertes, amiablenesse, and good grace, not with anie uncomelie or dishonest behaviour, or flickeringe enticement with wanton lookes, but with vertue and honest condicions.

* The final ende whereto the Coutier applieth all his good condicions, properties, feates and qualities, serveth also for a waiting Gentilwoman to grow in favour with her Lady, and by that meanes so to instruct her and traine her to vertue, that she may both refraine from vice and from committing anye dishonest matter, and also abhorr flatterers, and give her self to understand the full troth in every thyng, without entring into self leeking and ignorance, either of other outward thinges, or yet of her owne self.

(Welchen Ausschnitt hast Du übrigens genommen? Wenn wir dasselbe meinen, sind das ja insgesamt vier Bücher, ja? Die italienische Ausgabe der Bücher wäre dann auf http://www.letteraturaitaliana.net/PDF/Volume_4/t84.pdf zu finden.)

[Trakl]

Aus dem Dritten Buch. Ja, ist die Übersetzung von Hoby.

Das Italienische find ich anstrengender zu lesen, einfach weil ich besser Englisch als Italienisch kann.

Meine deutsche Ausgabe hab ich verschenkt, leider ist keine online.

Bin mir nicht sicher, ob die Liste im Original drinsteht, ich glaube nicht.

Im Original steht übrigens auch drin (zum Thema Altersunterschied), dass ein reifer Gentleman die Verantwortung übernehmen und nicht mit der jungen Frau schlafen sollte, auch wenn sie ihm zugewandt sein mag.

Rumknutschn ist aber ok, weil der Mund das Tor zur Seele ist. :biglaugh:
So stand es da, wenn ich mich recht erinnere....

Ich gugg bei Gelegenheit mal in der englischen Version nach.

[Sapor Vitae]

Das Italienische find ich anstrengender zu lesen, einfach weil ich besser Englisch als Italienisch kann.

Ich hatte das italienische gesucht, in der Hoffnung, dass es weniger anstrengend zu lesen ist.

Meine deutsche Ausgabe hab ich verschenkt, leider ist keine online.

Schade. Mal sehen, ob ich mich dazu durchringen kann, die englische Version zu lesen.

Rumknutschn ist aber ok, weil der Mund das Tor zur Seele ist. :biglaugh:
So stand es da, wenn ich mich recht erinnere....

Toll! :biglaugh:

[Trakl]

Das hier find ich sehr interessant:

* To be learned.
* To be seene in the most necessarie languages.
* To drawe and peinct.
* To daunse.
* To devise sportes and pastimes.

[Sapor Vitae]

Das hier find ich sehr interessant:

* To be learned.
* To be seene in the most necessarie languages.
* To drawe and peinct.
* To daunse.
* To devise sportes and pastimes.

Diese Punkte fand ich auch sehr interessant, aber da die Kriterien wohl vor allem Frauen der gehobenen Schicht betreffen sind sie gar nicht so erstaunlich. Da musste Frau vermutlich nicht in erster Linie putzen und kochen können, sondern eine gute Gastgeberin und vorzeigbar sein und sich eben auch in "guter" Gesellschaft bewegen können..

[Trakl]

Das hier find ich sehr interessant:

* To be learned.
* To be seene in the most necessarie languages.
* To drawe and peinct.
* To daunse.
* To devise sportes and pastimes.

Diese Punkte fand ich auch sehr interessant, aber da die Kriterien wohl vor allem Frauen der gehobenen Schicht betreffen sind sie gar nicht so erstaunlich. Da musste Frau vermutlich nicht in erster Linie putzen und kochen können, sondern eine gute Gastgeberin und vorzeigbar sein und sich eben auch in "guter" Gesellschaft bewegen können..

Allerdings. Ich bin aber auch der Meinung, dass das für die Frauen von heute ebenfalls gelten muss. Schließlich müssen Frauen heutzutage nicht mehr so viel putzen.
Und da machen sichs einige ziemlich bequem...

Von den heutigen "Gentlemen" bzw. "Cortegiani" wollen wir aber gar nicht erst anfangen...
Übrigens glaube ich mich zu erinnern, dass nicht nur die Fähigkeiten einer Frau sondern auch die Pflichten in dem Büchlein mit denen des Mannes (soweit nicht von geschlechtsspezifischer Bedeutung *g*) in eins gesetzt werden, wie das in dem obigen Text herauskommt.

Außerdem gibt es prima Schminktipps: man soll sich so schminken, dass nicht erkennbar ist, ob man überhaupt geschminkt ist.
Soviel zum Thema aufbrezeln