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[RaoulDuke]

[Beitrag wieder weg, löste mir ein etwas arg negatives Echo aus und mißverständlich fand ich ihn auch.]

It's so pity, I just wanted answer you!    There was nothing for to be ashamed, it just needed more detailed response.   

I was asked by more than one person if I was drunk while posting it, and even got told the passage about religion reminded someone of satanism!

... That seems to be the moment when it is time for a comment on "love" to... well... maybe be edited it a little. So, I think I will post a revised version later today.

[EL]

[Beitrag wieder weg, löste mir ein etwas arg negatives Echo aus und mißverständlich fand ich ihn auch.]

It's so pity, I just wanted answer you!    There was nothing for to be ashamed, it just needed more detailed response.   

I was asked by more than one person if I was drunk while posting it, and even got told the passage about religion reminded someone of satanism!

... That seems to be the moment where it is time for a comment on "love" to... well... maybe be edited it a little. So, I think I will post a revised version later today.

 

[Kenaz]

Kleine, garstige Randbemerkung: Ich halte das Wort "Liebe" für eines der überstrapaziertesten überhaupt und das, was sich in aller Regel dahinter verbirgt, für so was von überbewertet, dass es kaum in Worte zu fassen ist. Meist verbergen sich dahinter die ganz alltäglichen Egoismen, die auch den ordinären Alltag des Menschen bestimmen, nur eben vom inneren romantischen Schnulzschneider eingekleidet - was ihnen diese uuunwiderstehliche Wirkung verleiht. - "Außen hui, innen Pfui" - eine universell gültige Gleichung.

[RaoulDuke]

So, nachdem die erste Fassung unerwartet merkwürdige Wellen schlug (vermutlich, da sie unerwartet merkwürdig ausgefallen war), hier nun die überarbeitete Fassung.

Was lernt man daraus?

Niemals Liebe, Religion, und eigene Tiraden über Tiraden anderer Leute über Liebe und Religion in einem Beitrag abfackeln wollen. Dann wird's... unübersichtlich.

---

Du kannst Dich ruhig der deutschen Sprache bedienen, wenn Du Dich explizit an mich richtest, Raoul. Dass EL des Deutschen mächtig ist, wissen wir, sonst könnte sie sich gar nicht an den Diskussionen hier beteiligen.

Ja, das ist natürlich wahr, wenn ich mich auch gleichermaßen an Dich richtete wie an EL, war der eigentliche Grund, dass ich gelegentlich so einen Spaß an der englischen Sprache entwickele, dass ich mich immer über eine Möglichkeit freue, sie einsetzen zu können.

Zur Sache: Es ist vollkommen richtig, dass das eine Frage der moralischen Standards ist, die man hat oder eben nicht hat. Deshalb habe ich meine Antwort genau so und nicht anders formuliert: Ich finde, die Frage ist von EL dermaßen zweifelnd formuliert, dass ich den deutlichen Eindruck habe, dass hier eine Kollision mit moralischen Wertbegriffen vorprogrammiert ist.

Ich bin nicht ganz sicher. Aus der Situation als solcher zu folgern, dass weitermachen von einem selbst verantwortungslos wäre, fände ich etwas weitgreifend. Schließlich ist man ja nicht dafür verantwortlich, dass sich andere Personen richtig und gut verhalten, oder? Wenn sich also jemand dafür entscheidet, eine Affäre haben zu wollen, dann kann man selbst als "Objekt seiner Begierde" ihn ja nicht davon abhalten, und vielleicht sollte man es auch gar nicht. Schließlich kann man ja nicht wissen, was auch Sicht der anderen Person die richtige oder moralische Entscheidung ist. Man kann es ahnen, man kann darüber sprechen, aber verantwortlich bleibt hier immer noch der andere. Die einzige Situation, in der einem Verantwortung zuwächst, ist, wenn man bemerkt, dass der andere sich aus welchen Gründen auch immer nicht so verhalten kann, wie er selbst es als richtig erachtet.

OK, klingt zugegeben nach Haarspalterei, hat aber deutliche Folgen für das eigene Handeln in so einer Situation... Ob man selbst dabei mitmachen möchte, steht dann natürlich auf einem anderen Blatt.

[...]dann kann nur demjenigen geraten werden weiterzumachen, der ohnehin ausschließlich sich selbst der Nächste ist und auf das Wohl und Wehe der Familie, die an das Objekt seiner Begierde angeschlossen ist, pfeift. - So schätze ich EL aber nicht ein.

Ich auch nicht, weit (sehr weit) entfernt davon. Im Gegenteil, ich finde ehrlich und sehr mutig, Überlegungen anzustellen wie diese:

How mach are such families, where one of partners began to realize that he/she made a mistake, but It's too later to do something (small lovely children!). It's classic! It's very good, when partners can good understand each other and try to go towards. What about interests of person, if he/she can't actualize his/her sexually fantasy in the family borders?

a) It's better don't admit yourself in that! You have to forget yourself, sacrifice yourselves to family life,  to trample your sexuality, more better to consider to some religion ( if you don't happy on this world, will be happy after died! or will be happy with 40  virgins etc..)...or to dive with your ears to work.
b) Next variant - to be quiet prickteaser (sorry) whole life in a corner in front of a porn-screen, with a head, full of fantasy.
c) Or.. one day you'll try to realize your fantasy with somebody else...   

Hier nochmal eine Passage in Englisch, weil es mir hier doch ein wenig auf die Nuancen ankommt...

I think that human beings denying themselves to realise their full potential and denying themselves to live the life that is right for them can never be right. And, you don't have to be free of any morality to do it. If you decide to continue in a situation where your family life and what you really want heavily contradict, wouldn't you lie to yourself and everyone around you by claiming to want what you don't, by accepting you have become a slave of the circumstances? How good can it be for your children then to have a liar and a slave as a role model?

In short, a) and b) look like dead ends to me. But maybe if the family you start or have started is based on true love, the problem discussed above will never occur, and you should not have to think about c) too often... (and by the way, is there some virgin-inflation going on? First 72, now only 40, is 20 next? *g*)

Love (+ sex inside this concept) and morality are incompatible in their essence, they have nothing to do!

Rarely have I heard such a bold statement - and rarely did I have to admit so quickly that I agree.

Oh!  A hunter says within you! 

A hunter within me? No idea what you are talking about. Honestly.

Kleine, garstige Randbemerkung: Ich halte das Wort "Liebe" für eines der überstrapaziertesten überhaupt und das, was sich in aller Regel dahinter verbirgt, für so was von überbewertet, dass es kaum in Worte zu fassen ist.

Diese Bemerkung ist klein, garstig und sehr treffend. 

[EL]

Du kannst Dich ruhig der deutschen Sprache bedienen, wenn Du Dich explizit an mich richtest, Raoul. Dass EL des Deutschen mächtig ist, wissen wir, sonst könnte sie sich gar nicht an den Diskussionen hier beteiligen.

Ja, das ist natürlich wahr, wenn ich mich auch gleichermaßen an Dich richtete wie an EL, war der eigentliche Grund, dass ich gelegentlich so einen Spaß an der englischen Sprache entwickele, dass ich mich immer über eine Möglichkeit freue, sie einsetzen zu können.

I'm a hundred times sorry I can't to write German!     
Of course, make as it comfortable to you, please!
it's true better to read English for me, but I'll adapt.   
-----------------

Shortly about sex and morality.......... huh! 
A society without morality does not exist, it's difficult to imagine where we were now, if don't be a deterrent traditional Christian morality ( I mean historic process of develop society) I can just imagine reverse situation.
In the 20th century there were various attempts to cross this moral, I will mention just several moments of that:
The feminist movement,  The sexual revolution of 70's in America led to the appearance of such movements as described here: a documentary film 'American Swing' by Jon Hart and Matthew Kaufman (free Russian version of this dokumentary film is here )
Video shots speak for themselves!  Or version of the "liberation" of sexual morality in Germany in last century.

As a result of liberation, I see the appearance of "islands of free morals" - clubs in Germany and other European countries.. Just look at some of them: Catonium (Hamburg), Insomnia (Berlin), KitKatClub(Berlin), etc.

To what extent this is the way for the realization of sexual fantasies out for family couples, I can't say yet, but I think to some measure, yes. It requires curiosity and the coincidence inclinations of both partners.
Will strengthen such the experience of love relations?   ha-ha, hardly!  Either they are or they didn't start!
Entertainments "for adults" are only brave step, as opposite of public morality, it's one of variants of realization sexual fantasies in the liberated society.

Take my monologue as a short retreat from a theme, please,    maybe it deserves a new topic... I am too lazy for that.

Kleine, garstige Randbemerkung: Ich halte das Wort "Liebe" für eines der überstrapaziertesten überhaupt und das, was sich in aller Regel dahinter verbirgt, für so was von überbewertet, dass es kaum in Worte zu fassen ist.

Diese Bemerkung ist klein, garstig und sehr treffend. 

About some hardly written things one would better to keep silent,...and however!
The love is .. strangely inner vibrations that occur at absolutely no apparent reasons. They made you to do absolutely incredible things! It's like of pink, white, purple the ether, flowing around you... Should I continue? 

[RaoulDuke]

As a result of liberation, I see the appearance of "islands of free morals" - clubs in Germany and other European countries.. Just look at some of them: Catonium (Hamburg), Insomnia (Berlin), KitKatClub(Berlin), etc.

Seeing these clubs as a result of liberation somehow feels wrong to me, I have to admit. While these "islands of free morals" are in no way "islands free of morality", they are more a byproduct of the development of society as a whole. Measured as a percentage of the population, the share of people who would enjoy being there (or in the handful of other locations that would fit in that list) is very low in my opinion. By byproduct I mean that such places exist because a liberal society tolerates them, not because they are by any means what the society as a whole would like to move towards or even should move towards.

I think in a way being into the things that might be going on there (besides the dancing, which can of course be fun of its own) is like being gay - nothing you decide to be into or you can decide against.

Take my monologue as a short retreat from a theme, please,    maybe it deserves a new topic...

An what topic would that be?

... I think the experiences, the characters or even the desires may be too far apart for an exchange of opinion on level ground in many instances. But I have to admit, once in a while when I think of the whole situation or think of my own life which had its fair share of impact from thoughts like these, I begin to hum this song...

[EL]

Sure, I don't encourage you to share with your experiences!    (among other things it would be interesting!  )

I let me to added some quotes by Sigmund Freud:
“In matters of sexuality we are at present, every one of us, ill or well, nothing but hypocrites.”

Take my monologue as a short retreat from a theme, please,    maybe it deserves a new topic...

An what topic would that be?
... I think the experiences, the characters or even the desires may be too far apart for an exchange of opinion on level ground in many instances....

I mean topic about results of sexual revolution the 20th century and its influence to modern the state of society.

Do you think the society began to be so liberal by itself? Or maybe do you think the christian morality or the bourgeois morality had admitted the people with nonconventional orientation before? Even if the percent of them is too low! ( hmm, it would be well to give some statistics here )
No, we live too good and in the prosperous time! As soon as will begin some serious economic problems, the liberalism will finished and will start the hunting on witches. And the first sacrifices will be gays, lesbiens, emigrants etc..
 
“Conservatism, however, is too often a welcome excuse for lazy minds, loath to adapt themselves to fast changing conditions.” Sigmund Freud

So, it's a little bit off topic...

Lets as to talk about Love better!   

[RaoulDuke]

Sure, I don't encourage you to share with your experiences!    (among other things it would be interesting!  )

Well, there is a reason for the saying "A gentleman never tells", isn't it?

I have the feeling I discussed way too much already... These experiences would be terribly boring for most, just not interesting for many, would satisfy the curiosity of some and be really interesting for only very few - as is the case for everyones experiences I guess.

I let me to added some quotes by Sigmund Freud:
“In matters of sexuality we are at present, every one of us, ill or well, nothing but hypocrites.”

I disagree, and (sorry to say that) I feel sorry for those who agree. Besides, that quote is from 1898... (right where it belongs! *g*)